i’ll probably be hated for this, but the more i think about it the more i think it is important to bring up.
i absolutely love the look of the new fader design thorwil did, however when i look at it and try to picture the mixer from an ‘ardour newbie’ point of view i think it could be confusing. the faders look too much like level indicators i think, and maybe need to have some sort of visual indication that they are indeed faders (even if it is only on mouseover maybe).
don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. i’m just thinking about newcomers and if it might be a bit confusing to them.
I have to agree with porl. I don’t like the look of the faders at all, in fact. They don’t resemble faders and the structure that’s painted on the faders is hardly indictive of a fader, or even something you can grab and control. The painted structure seems to cover the actual fader and the non-fader area.
I haven’t tried ardour2 since it was released, I’ve only used the beta’s… so I’m not giving my opinion, based on useability, but purely on aesthetics. To me, they simply don’t resemble controls that can be manipulated in an up-down manner.
breakerfall: fader and non fader area? these faders have only one area. That’s much of the point about them. The problem graphics-wise is indeed to have enough contrast for the level while also expressing that it’s one area to click / drag on.
You should try them.
I’m open for suggestions on how else to style them. From people who tried them.
just my opinion but I think ardours fader design is fantastic after years of using DAW’s that have little buttons to aim the curser at I find thorwil’s design very refreshing…cheers
as i said, i certainly don’t have a problem with them myself - i think they look great. i’m just wondering about the usability for newcomers. perhaps a ‘handle’ that appears on mouseover? i don’t know really, just thought i’d mention it to see if anyone else has thought the same.
porl: no bad feelings. there is no handle to not mislead anyone into thinking he has to aim for it. The presence of a handle on sliders in Blender has been shown to lead people into thinking they have use the handle, while they can in fact drag on the whole slider area.
The mouse cursor could be changed to an up-down arrow on mouse-over.
The mouse cursor could be changed to an up-down arrow on mouse-over.
that might help. like i said though, i was just saying that it’s something to think about. i haven’t heard anyone actually complain about it, so it would be very low priority anyways.
While we’re throwing ideas around, I’ve been thinking about the fan sliders idea more and more, and I think that (down the line) it would be really neat to see tiny little faders that explode into full size elements on mouse-over, with neat openGL composite effects
~bennyp
Thorwil’s design has worked very well for my students. They are younger than me (!) and are not looking for software that looks like hardware, as hardware was not at the heart of their first recording experience. I love the fact that we are not holding on to a design when there are better options in software. It feels great in use too.
mattb: love to hear that, thanks
Could you please report about your experiences with your students learning Ardour? It could lead to insight on stumbling blocks that might not be so clear in cases the user and observant are the same person.
I’d like to say I like thorwil’s design. I’ve never really thought much about them, but I think that’s the point. You don’t have to think about them to use them. I’m by no means an anvanced user, but I’ve never wondered how to use them.
I agree with porl that the up-down cursor can be helpful to new users as a visual aid, but I think anything more than that, such as OpenGL effects, is just eye-candy and should be avoided. It takes away from the developers’ ability to focus on functionality, and people with slower systems (like me) might not be able to display them at all.
The more I use Ardour, the more I like the faders exactly the way they are. I like that I can grab anywhere on the fader and not have it automatically snap to that position. It’s very elegant and functional the way it is.
Beta, feel free to patch Ardour to your hearts content. There’s no guarantee that any of your patches will be committed into Ardour, but if they’re publically available, then anybody who wants them, can use them. You don’t need permission from anybody to write patches against Ardour.
As I’ve already stated in this thread, I’m not a great fan of the new fader design. Having a larger area with which to click on to control a fader isn’t something I’ve ever found myself needing. If you want to change fader values easily and quickly, you use a control surface. Also, like with any interface design, there are general rules that one should try to follow. Stick to known, tested and implemented techniques and methods. It removes the need to re-learn an interface each time you switch between applications. Even in web-development, it’s a key rule. Use concepts that your visitors will already be used to. Don’t have menu’s and navigation working completely different to how people expect, don’t change the way drag and drop works, etc…
But hey, that’s my opinion. Beta, if you were to patch Ardour to use the old-style faders, you would have one additional user here. =]
I absolutely need this patch/option for myself, and if I succeed the patch will be publically available.
In fact, I’m just installing now ardour 2.3 on a test gentoo-pc,
hope to finish the thing next week, must do some study in gtk… and then I’ll post it here.
i’m a bit two sided with the new faders. i think they are a good idea in some respects, but i like old fashioned looking faders, makes me feel more ‘at home’
i think one of the things ardour needs to focus on in future (as i have said in other threads) is a more modern look and feel. i started playing around with the gtkrc file at one point, but i haven’t had any time lately, so it has stagnated somewhat.
porl
ps. i think logic’s fader design is a good compromise between ‘obvious and easy functionality’ and speedy use (i think i remember it working like thorwil’s faders, with click-anywhere-to-use functionality). i think they look prettier too
I also think an option would be nice. I’m coming from years of doing ‘other’ DAWs, and I’m just used to seeing some handle…I’ve often wondered why there isn’t.
Obviously, this is a minor issue, but it would be nice.
hehe