Windows?

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endolith
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Has anyone tried running it under AndLinux? http://www.andlinux.org/ Like a virtual machine, but a bit more native (and doesn't support 64-bit yet.)

thorgal
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hi, just read a little about andLinux. It runs ALL linux apps in ONE windows process. Not sure this would provide a stellar performance ... but I did not know about andLinux and I can certainly try to use it for other purposes! thanks for the tip :)

thorgal
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actually, it works :)

I used jack2 svn on andLinux, using the net driver, and jack2 for windows on winXP pro, using the portaudio driver, and the netmanager loaded at startup. I recorded some rubbish from my laptop mic. I ran jack2 at p1024, n3, r48000. No prob. My laptop being limited in resources, I did not try to get very far :)

Not sure what you can really do like this. andLinux remains linux, so you'd better have a real linux machine for running ardour optimally but with this setup you can add some windows jack clients to the graph and record in the "virtual" ardour. Get a powerful PC though :)

PhilR
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Just signed up to add my voice to the call for windows compatibility! We have Protools right now and are not big fans of it; it would be nice to at least be able to try Ardour out.

I have no particular objection to Linux but this is a self-supported environment where I just can't deal with the extra time and messing about it costs. Or we could completely re-equip with apple macs, I suppose...

P

paul
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PhilR: if you read thorgal's posts above, you'll find you can try the Linux version of Ardour on Windows. As has been mentioned before, our existing developer community has no experience with Windows nor any desire to gain it. If you read the whole thread, and the other 2 or 3 on the forum on the same topic, you will also find that we (or perhaps its just me) have serious concerns about what a Windows version would do to (a) the existing community (an existing quite technical and proud of it group overrun by a 10:1 ratio of mostly very non-technical (and assertively so) users) and (b) our ability to provide support. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just that its really not on our core roadmap. The benefits to us would be limited to possibly enhanced revenue and the tradeoff would be a massive increase in support efforts for a system that none of us use.

PhilR
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Well, that's the first time I've ever heard an opensource developer openly admit that he wants to exclude anyone who isn't a software engineer.

I suppose I should be grateful for the honesty, really.

paul
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@PhilR: that's a completely unfair characterization of what I said. Most of the users of Ardour on Linux and OS X are not software engineers. The Linux community is generally much more technical in their orientation - one can argue about why that is, but it remains a fact one way or another; the OS X community tends to share an approach of "if it works, I use it, otherwise I toss it away and never mention it again". The Windows community doesn't fit either of these characteristics.

If you'd like more background on the issues with Windows support, I suggest you read this post by the lead developer of Inkscape (a program quite a lot like Adobe Illustrator): http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/drupal6/node/41

I personally find it quite strange when people who use Windows appear to "expect" developers of software to make it work on their chosen platform. I'm not sure why its hard to grasp the idea that rather than deliberately choosing to exclude Windows, we're actually just trying to develop software for the computing platform that we feel to be more appropriate to our needs. Ardour wasn't written to be "the DAW for everyone". It was written to be the DAW for people who use Linux; it turned out to be easy to port to OS X, and so we did, and thus were able to provide a hopefully-useful tool to a second community. Maybe one day, someone will finish grappling with all the difficulties of porting it to Windows, and then it can provide the same to that community as well. But in not doing this, we are not criticizing or seeking to exclude Windows, but rather are just focusing on the actual goal of providing a really good DAW for platforms that we want to use ourselves.

PhilR
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Yes, that's more or less what I was intending to encapsulate in my shorthand above. You can bang on about C/U ratios all you want, but that's just a wordier way of expressing the legendary standoffishness of Linux people towards - well - anyone who isn't a software engineering graduate. It's preposterous, of course, and denies the entire purpose of computers, but it's richly ironic to produce something like a DAW and then complain that non-technical people want to use it. Of course they do, they're audio production people, who are by and large not software engineers. I suspect, conversely, that you are not an audio production person, but I also suspect you would not accept that as a legitimate profession because it isn't software engineering. It's been said a million times, but I'll restate it here: attention, Linux world. Not everyone is a software engineer, nor will it ever be so, nor is it desirable that it is so. Your dogged persistence on this is the reason the platform has failed and continues to fail to be widely used as a desktop OS.

But really, Paul, if you want people to stop using Windows, forget Ardour, and start fixing some of the myriad problems that prevent people from using Linux. That would be a much more productive and useful application of your time. One of the last things that would stop me moving to Ubuntu would be the lack of a Protools clone, and this typifies the problem. Linux people need to stop writing DAWs and 3D effects for the window compositor, and fix the package manager, for instance. Priorities, people.

I simply don't understand. You spend weeks and months and years writing this stuff, then you behave in a deliberately prohibitive manner when it comes to letting people use it. This isn't an unusual attitude; almost all opensource projects seem to treat finished software as a sort of object d'art as opposed to a means to an end, and I find it completely unfathomable. What do you think computers are for?!

P

seablade
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@PhilR

I can tell you, you are completely off base, and completely misrepresenting what was said.

You can bang on about C/U ratios all you want, but that's just a wordier way of expressing the legendary standoffishness of Linux people towards - well - anyone who isn't a software engineering graduate. It's preposterous, of course, and denies the entire purpose of computers, but it's richly ironic to produce something like a DAW and then complain that non-technical people want to use it.

That isn't it at all, and you are completely misunderstanding open source or intentionally misrepresenting it in this statement.

The point Paul has brought up, and I think is a valid point, though John's work may work to disprove it somewhat, is that no current developer other than John runs Windows, and the major contributors do not(Not attempting to downplay John's contributions here, more recognizing the massive contributions by others at given points in times). As such releasing a windows version to start with requires major work, work that John is doing at the moment. But then going through and SUPPORTING Ardour on Windows requires even more work. Not only must you develop and test on windows, which triples the testing required for every patch, not to mention the amount of work spent doing the actual coding, but you must also discern reports of all qualities. The latter part exists on all systems, but is exactly what the numbers Paul mentioned provide, an indication of the ratio of quality of bug reports and testing on all platforms.

...but I also suspect you would not accept that as a legitimate profession because it isn't software engineering.

Knowing Paul you are flat out wrong. I will let him speak to the former accusation in that sentence if he chooses to. The latter I know from conversations with him. I am a professional audio engineer, I work on many different scales, and in many different areas of the field. For the record, I am a sound designer that has worked in theater and animations, done work for commercials to pay the bills, recorded and released CDs, and consult on system design. I am also someone that has contributed code back to Ardour on occasion when I had time to do it myself, but can also tell you that Paul has been amazing in his support of Ardour at times, providing me with versions of Ardour that fix issues I have had within a matter of days to allow me to complete projects. Me being someone that understands or submits code has little to do with that, but instead is the willingness that I had to let him work with me to troubleshoot an issue in many cases, and compile a new test version, and test, rinse and repeat till we found the cause.

But really, Paul, if you want people to stop using Windows, forget Ardour, and start fixing some of the myriad problems that prevent people from using Linux. That would be a much more productive and useful application of your time. One of the last things that would stop me moving to Ubuntu would be the lack of a Protools clone, and this typifies the problem. Linux people need to stop writing DAWs and 3D effects for the window compositor, and fix the package manager, for instance. Priorities, people.

This statement is a strawman in this conversation that has little to do with Ardour or Paul. However that being said, I can tell you flat out that if tools were not available for me to do my work on Linux, I wouldn't use it. If Ardour didn't exist, I likely would never have used Linux as an full time audio production platform, nor would I be looking at returning to it full time again here in the near future(Currently on OS X). If the tools don't exist to do the work that is needed on Linux, then people should rightly not try to switch to Linux, period. It won't help them get the work done.

I simply don't understand. You spend weeks and months and years writing this stuff, then you behave in a deliberately prohibitive manner when it comes to letting people use it.

Hardly, he has not said that people that want to can't work on getting it to work on Windows, John's work is evidence of this enough. He has said he won't support it at this time, which is understandable since he doesn't run Windows to be able to support it first off, and secondly requires a significant investment in time that takes away from the primary development of the tool.

Seablade

peder
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@PhilR : You seem to have missed beauty #1 of open source : the ability to fork. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from checking out the svn tree and start porting it to Windows. The fact that the lead developers don't want the increased burden of debugging and supporting an unfamiliar platform by no means prohibits you from taking up the task.
It feels quite preposterous for a user to demand that developers of free software should port their software to that users platform of choice. One can ask and suggest, but unless one is willing to put up the cost (in acctually doing the porting or paying someone to do it) one has to accept if the answer is NO.

I don't think Paul, or any developers of linux/unix software (save RMS perhaps), has an agenda of wanting people to stop using Windows, but merely prefers not to use it themselves and also want others to have an assortment of programs to use, should they feel a desire to leave the Microsoft world.
And I don't think Pauls knowledge would be of much use in writing package managers. That said, I really don't see the problem in package managers of today. If you dislike Ubuntus why not try openSUSES or Fedoras?

If you dislike ProTools why not try one of the other DAW's for Windows? God knows there's a plethora of 'em. Heck, if you want open source you could even try Traverso.

PhilR
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"There's absolutely nothing stopping you from checking out the svn tree and start porting it to Windows."

Oh, for christ's sake. Is there something difficult about the phrase "not a software engineer?" We are not all coders. Statistically speaking, almost nobody is. This is why it's ridiculous in the extreme to complain that there aren't many contributors per user. Of course there aren't! Do you expect the number of chefs in the world to equal the number of people who eat food?! The core problem with linux and open source software is not anything technical, it is this attitude. And you're proud of it!

And if I've said this once, I've said it a million times. You do not have to support it. Ignore windows bugs if you want. It's open source. You don't owe anybody anything, but to sit there in your ivory tower and refuse to let anyone use is a masochistic waste of effort.

paul
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PhilR: I don't know what planet or culture you are from where my/our not being willing to put my/our own time and effort into working a Windows port can constitute a refusal to let "anyone" use it.

seablade
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@PhilR

You seem to be under the VERY mistaken impression that Ardour can be easily compiled on Windows right now. It can't. There is no, 'not letting users use it' it, it requires a significant amount of development work(Hundreds of hours I would bet) just to even get the thing to compile, much less run. What John is doing right now is contributing to this, but is nowhere near usable at this point in time. Even if it was it would take significant amounts of time just to package it for windows users that don't know how to compile to run it.

There is no, 'don't support it option' for what you are asking, support is demanded and required just by distributing it, hours of work every week are required to even allow people to use it.

It is obvious you are not a software engineer, yet you tell those that are how to do their job.

Seablade

peder
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Is there something difficult about the phrase "not a software engineer?" We are not all coders...

That's why I said, further down, that if the developers are unwilling to do the porting (for whatever reason, be it lack of knowledge, time or plain funding) and you can't do it yourself, you can hire someone to do it for you. I'm sure the Ardour community would welcome anyone who would be willing to take up that task (as John [Emmas?] seems to have been doing to some extent). What you and say 5-10(?) other ProTools users are paying for that program would probably be enough for someone to do an Ardour port.

Please try to get it into your head that noone is sitting on a perfect copy of ArdWin.exe and just refuse to release it out of spite. And releasing a Windows binary of alpha or sub-alpha quality to the general public and then refuse to support it would be an enormous PR disaster.

...The core problem with linux and open source software is not anything technical, it is this attitude.

You do not have to be a software engineer to enjoy the world of GNU/Linux. Not by any means. I personally know 6-year olds who use it without any problem and I've heard of grandmothers whose biggest problem after making the switch from Windows was to remember that the blue E-icon that is the internet now looks like a curled-up fox of some kind.
What the community is somewhat proud of is that anyone can use their skills or money (if lack of skills) to change any program to their liking. Take the linux kernel for instance: Linus has stated publically that it will never support anything other than the Intel x86 family and never anything above 2 (or was it 4?) GB of RAM. Then someone took the time and produced code to support architect X and RAM-size Y and it got incorporated.
Try convincing Microsoft that Word should print every other letter lightblue, but if you really wanted/needed it you could make OpenOffice.org's Writer do just that.

And when you are given something for free, are you really in any position to complain if the manufacturers aren't willing to bend over backwards to meet your wishes for enhancements? To reiterate; you can always ask but if you get a NO you have to accept that and move on.
Or, to bask in the glory of open source, ask someone else to do it.

PhilR
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Not for the first time, I give up on Linux and everything to do with it...

peder
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To be frank, it seem a bit childish to throw down the toys and leave just because everything doesn't go your way, but then again nobody forces you to use Linux and open source software.
If you feel your needs are better met in the Windows world you should definitly use that. Or try Mac and OSX (and the supported Ardour port :)

Linux, Ardour and the other open source programs are just an alternative and they'll be here the next time you feel the urge to visit.

macinnisrr
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PhilR: How about an ubiquitous car analogy: You want a hybrid that gets 70mpg, and comes with an ipod adapter, but it costs $30,000, and when it breaks down you need to take it to the dealer to fix because everything's running on firmware and packed in so tightly under the hood. On the other hand, your grandma has a '76 Monte Carlo that gets 12mpg, and comes with an 8-track player. The nice thing about your grandma is that she's willing to give you the car for free, and when the fanbelt breaks you can fix it with pantyhose, etc. So one day, knowing you can't afford the car you really want, you call her up and say "I'll take the car grandma, but I want you to put in an ipod adapter and a hybrid engine before you give it to me, because I have no idea how to do that". Grandma says "I love you Philly dear, but I neither know how to do that myself nor have the money to have it done". You respond with "F*** you grandma, that's what I hate about old people, you're so damned selfish"

Do you see how ludicrous this all is?

God, I love a good car analogy ;-)
DickMacInnis.com

joegiampaoli
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@ PhilR:

If I were to be placed on a ship with a captain on it I would still look around for the manual on how to control and how the ship works, sometimes you can't expect the captain and his crew members to do it all or know it all, a little extra knowledge and help from someone new is always great to have, and more in case of an emergency....

You said:
Do you expect the number of chefs in the world to equal the number of people who eat food?

I say, of course not!!!!

But I do want to know what the hell I'm eating and how it was prepared, I don't have to become a chef for that but at least get through some basic cooking knowledge....

When I did the switch to LINUX from Windows (a few years back which I don't regret at all any time), yes it was a bit hard for me, and have gained a lot more knowledge in computers than what I had, and I didn't even know I was going to gain it, it just kept coming at me, and it still does, it would be so boring and sad if I stopped learning....

Now I have become a main supporter for a specific USB audio device to work fully under linux, when I got it and saw it didn't work the way it should, I didn't come here to spit on people's faces and tell them to fix it, I did some of my homework and made it work, and now I have people thanking me for what i have done who have the same device, this is how all this linux and open source thing works, we are a community that work together, we ask things by saying please and if done we say thanks, and if not we try to understand and see what can be done......

That's the difference with the type of people you find around here, it's not an "attitude" thing we have, but we see you are having a hard time understanding that.

Just a thought, that's all.

John E
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joegiampaoli wrote:
If I were to be placed on a ship with a captain on it I would still look around for the manual on how to control and how the ship works

Oh dear, Joe. Your argument fell at the first hurdle I'm afraid.... :)

PhilR hasn't made it clear how often or how seriously he tried to get to grips with Linux but he's right to say that it isn't for the faint hearted. Personally I tried very hard to like Linux but at the end of the day, there were more things I didn't like than things I did like. Similarly of course, there are lots of things that people don't like about Windows and Mac. Which one becomes your favourite is entirely a matter of personal preference - nothing more.

As Paul described earlier, Ardour's developers are developing a DAW for their preferred platform. If it could be adapted to work on Windows I'm sure that Paul would welcome the modifications - but someone else would have to take up the baton and run with it. It's not a job that the existing programmers would want to do. This has nothing to do with snobbishness. It's just that different programmers prefer different tools and techniques. Just like some people prefer Macs and some prefer PCs. And some drivers prefer Audi whereas others prefer Toyota or Renault. You wouldn't complain if your local Renault dealer refused to fix a fault on your Audi. You'd accept the fact that he doesn't have the right tools and equipment. So why complain if a Linux programmer doesn't want to program for Windows?

As an update though, my Windows build has just come out of mothballs where it's been for the past three or four months. I got it working quite acceptably - except for the fact that the supporting libraries were built using 3 different compilers (Visual C++ 6, Visual C++ 8 and MinGW). This introduced some subtle bugs that were very difficult to find, so I had to shelve it until I could find a way to build everything using Visual C++. A couple of months ago I came across a guy who's turned out to be a real wizard with Perl scripts and he's written a whole suite of modules for converting automake sessions into Visual C++ projects. We're only at the initial stages of testing but the early signs are very encouraging. If he manages to crack this it'll be a HUGE leap forward.

I've done enough work with Ardour itself to know that I can create a code base which builds effortlessly under both Visual C++ and gcc. In fact I'm using the same actual code for building under Linux, Cygwin and VC++. Ardour itself isn't going to be a problem but those pesky support libs are going to need a lot more work.

tomas vtipil
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just for the record (not sure if it's worth something - this discussion exceeded the point where emotions start playing bigger part than facts, i'm afraid...):

i'm not a programmer nor sw engineer, not in a slightest way. i'm a musician and have no knowledge of any kind of programming language and never was involved in sw development in any other way than testing. i even don't know how to code html (but it doesn't prevent me from using the web, does it?)

i use linux with ardour, it suits my needs and i'm happy with it. of course i had hard time sometimes, of course i had to learn something new while switching to linux (from mac), but it wasn't particularly harder than switching from win to mac or from dos to win back in the days - every change just demands some time and effort.

but the point is: i, as a non-programmer, don't suffer from linux community being sort of more technically oriented one. i benefit from it. in fact, the existence of technically oriented community helps me do things i would not be able to do without their support. there are lots of tutorials, discussions, willing consultants. isn't it good to have a community of experts right at my mouse pointer? i think it's really convenient - i haven't experienced such support in non-linux world.

cheers,
t.

tomas vtipil
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and yes, we're not all chefs, but i still can make myself a coffee, and it'll be 5 times faster and 10 times cheaper than that nice espresso they make in the restaurant round the corner. having to go to the restaurant every time would be a disaster 'cause i'm a real coffee junkie. this doesn't prevent me from buying a cup time to time! simple as can be, i don't see anything wrong with it.

calimerox
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guess we shouldnt pay any attention to people that join the forum 3 days ago and then just mess around like PhilR without being constructive in any way. its just too annoying...

DonF
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OTOH, now PhilR is likely to go to the DUC, or to the REAPER forums, and go on and on about what a bunch of snobs "those Linuxtards" are. He came here, apparently, with preconceived notions about our attitude. We did nothing (or not enough) to dispel those notions.

OTOH (running out of hands now) PhilR did nothing to dispel our notions of Windows users being little more than a bunch of clueless morons. The fact is, that if there is ever to be a Windows version of Ardour, someone is going to have to pay for it, and someone is going to have to support it. Those things don't happen by magic.

BabaG
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sorry, but that guy was a troll. in one breath he pleads for help because he's a small shop and in the next berates paul for claiming the same for himself. while i'd love to see ardour for windows, this guy was just looking for something for free and hoping to bully his way into getting it.

meka
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Paul, don't get me wrong, but answering "why is there no windows version of ardour" seems to me like explaining nuclear phisics to a kid. I do use Linux only, and do use Ardour for my hobby, but I would like to see a windows version of ardour, too. The reason I didn't say anything is that I belive if there is not a version of some software for some platform I use, I have a choice, when it come's to FOSS: 1) shut up, and hope someone will do it for me 2) write the damn code and send the patch. I feel your answer should be something like "if anyone is willing to write good enough patch and maintain the code, I'll be more then willing to include the patch in the svn". I've seen you explaining people why you don't do the windows coding too many times. Why not just tell them "I don't want to do it, but, hey, it's open source, you're free to write it"? Just my 2c

ficheland
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Hi Ardour Developers,

I am using Logic 8 on my macbook, but now I am about writing a book for children "The Studio guide" or so in German Language. I've been looking for an opensource Programm (that everyone can afford to start into Music) that can sequenze Audio and MIDI.

So Iwas recommended Ardour.
Since most kids would use Windows-PC I would like to find a Win-Version. But I understand the problems with it. so my Idea is, isn't there a possibility of creating an Linux Image that contains Ardour and maybe OpenOffice (for Lyrics and stuff) and Audacity as an audio editor. So that the kids could use as a live OS just the same what platform they prefer.(Put into the drive and boot-ready!!)

Is that possible that a live CD could access any computer's sound device and storage (to store the songs...)

I would encourage myself and my (hopeful many ) future Readers of the book to donate Money to develope Ardour.

Pleas excuse my poor English in Hope of some reply Thank you
yours Falk "ficheland"

joegiampaoli
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@ ficheland:

Just an Idea......

You could try creating a linux image on a pen drive (usb stick) with all the applications you are mentioning and just boot from it. Ubuntu and other Linux distros already have a usb drive creator. There is a company that sells them named Indamixx, but it really is easy to do it yourself, just check out:

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/

Once you have the image you can create infinity of copies.....

So in short, to answer your question, can it be done? Of course it can, it's amazing what you can do with linux :)

but a USB drive might be better, since configuration files can be saved directly on the usb drive.

Good Luck.

ficheland
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@ joegiampaol

Thanx Joe for that instant reply and interesting attempt, I will try this too.
A friend of mine suggested Ubuntu Studio (http://ubuntustudio.org/) you might know that ?

So I will try both...Thanx again I'll tell about the results

Ficheland

joegiampaoli
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@ ficheland:

Linux distros like ubutu studio are ok.... for starters. Maybe for a children project like yours will for sure hold well. But some distros sometimes don't get all the audio stuff working well, I don't know how ubuntu studio developers configure all their audio applications and settings now, but when I tried some time ago I had some issues. What I do is I run basic ubuntu and compile, install and configure all my stuff myself, that way I am sure I am running latest and best settings on my box.

I am not saying you have to do this..., it's just something that works better for me.

But what you can do is:

First try Ubuntu Studio, if not good, we have a few fellow friends and ardour users here who have built their own linux based distros. One of them is GMaq and the other is macinnisrr, their own linux distros are here:

http://www.bandshed.net/AVLinux.html
http://dream.dickmacinnis.com/

I am sure both are solid since they are developed by musicians who do work with the software and not by some underground trolls in a dungeon ( a bit hard to explain this comment), but I think you get the point :)

Or you can do it like i do, just get latest ubuntu (or other distro like debian, fedora, etc) and try to roll from that, although a bit more work, but you will be able to customize it a lot more for the ISO.

Wish you the best in your project.

macinnisrr
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Joe: thanks for mentioning Dream Studio (http://dream.dickmacinnis.com). Just as a note on what it is: It's almost the same as Ubuntu Studio, but with more up-to-date apps, better default audio settings, and prettier graphics. Also, unlike UbuntuStudio it runs live on a DVD, and can be installed on a USB stick using any method that works for Ubuntu (however, I recommend doing a full install to the USB drive, rather than using USBcreator, Unetbootin, and the like. A true USB install is much faster and persistent by design).

As for being able to access your hard drive from a LiveCD/DVD, it's no problem with Dream Studio, though I can't speak for others. And though you can always customize your own install, I recommend using "Ubuntu Customization Kit" (http://uck.sourceforge.net) to add packages to your own live disc, as I've done. This way, you can just make customized copies of a single CD/DVD image for all your students.